Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Molly Jacobs's avatar

You wrote,"This fails to recognize that just because trans women may have grown up being subjected to the same external messages about gender roles does not mean that they experienced or responded to those messages in the same way as their cis-male peers.."

I've been working out a concept of active socialization with regard to transgender people in particular, which basically means that an individual's socialization is not all passive, but that we preferentially internalize characteristics from people of one gender or another as we grow up. The same process applies to cis gender people, where they internalize mannerisms, modes of speech, sensibilities, emotional expressiveness based on their AGAB. No one is born with all these gendered characteristics, but must be acquired empathically (via mirror neurons) and imitatively throughout childhood and beyond, much like as with language and other aspects of culture. In the case of transgender people, it's the exact same process but because of an innate sense of being the opposite of AGAB, we selectively socialize as a gender other than AGAB.

This is meant as a counter to TERF arguments that we cannot know what it's like to be a woman without feminine socialization, but this assumes that we passively accept imposed or expected gendered characteristics based on AGAB. Importantly, cis women go through the same active process of internalizing from people around them, and mainly from women and girls growing up, though of course we may all internalize from a variety of non-gendered characteristics from both boys/men and girls/women.

My first serious conscious thought in the late sixties (and without having any concept of transgender) was "I feel like a girl" and TERFs would say that I can't "know" what a girl feels like. And I would turn it back on them, how can they be sure their sense of girlhood or womanhood is what other girls or women feel, which goes back to the basic "knowing other minds" problem in philosophy. The answer is that we acquire our sense of sisterhood, empathically, through the same process of active , preferential socialization.

Do I have this right?

Neural Foundry's avatar

Really appreciate how methodically you worked through each possible definition. The way you used iterative refinement to eliminate body-based criteria one by one was convincing, especialy when pointing out how many cis women would be excluded under those frameworks. I've seen similar logic applied in other identity debates but never laid out this systematically. The conclusion about subjectivity being unavoidable makes sense once you accept that all the "objective" measures fail their own consistency tests.

9 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?